02:12 – Introduction
07:46 – Messenger Bots Explained
12:58 – Best Messenger Bots Application
15:23 – Starting Point for Application
18:32 – Chat Bot Experience Differences Between Services and E-Commerce
20:59 – Optimizing the Use of Chat Bots
24:00 – How Do Facebook Allow Marketers to Get User’s Email Addresses
25:47 – Split Testing In Emails
27:14 – Best Practice In Using Chat Bots
30:10 – How to Start a Conversation with A Customer
In this episode, I chat to Mary Kathryn Johnson from Messenger Funnels about what kind of businesses should use messenger bots as well as best practice when it comes to using messenger bots in your business.
Messenger Bots – How To Write Compelling Copy In Your Messenger Bot To Improve Conversions in PDF
Introduction
Welcome to today’s episode. It’s so lovely to have you here. Can you maybe just sort of give us a bit of information about you and what you do? And and maybe even your background?
Mary: Oh, boy, I’m going to have to keep myself on nice and short. Because I could talk forever (laughs). Ilana, I’m Mary Kathryn Johnson. I’m the CEO and founder of Messenger Funnels. And basically, this, my entire career online, which started in 2003,has culminated in this whole messenger bot world, this chat bot artificial intelligence. Futurist marketing is what I kind of call it, it’sgot grabbed me by the throat, and it will not let go. And it makes sense to me, because I’ve been chasing every marketing squirrel in the world, online since 2003. And it’s just all pinpoint to this, this make sense. And so, I landed in it two years ago, February or January of 2017. And I’m still having a blast.
Ilana: I’m interested, actually, on that in terms of why that grabbed you from the throat and why it resonated with you so much.
Mary: You know, I really do think, because I’m one of those weird people. Let’s see. So, I’m, I kind of straddle both sides of the fence between marketing creative coming up with ideas, being all excited about things and tech. And I love both, I straddle both, I can do both equally, I can get down into the weeds and and do a membership site detail. And I can look strategy and develop business plans and, and strategies and things. And so, I kind of do both of those things. So, when this whole messenger bot came into being when I first saw it, I’d already been trying to do email marketing, and all those kinds of things. And it just didn’t stick. It didn’t feel right, it just nothing ever really blew up for me in email, it just didn’t fulfil any of the promises. And when I saw this, it just, it made sense. It I understood it from a marketing standpoint of sending sequential messages and warming people up. But it spoke in a way that just lights me up. And the reason is mainly because I call it face tweet. It’s like Facebook and Twitter had a baby. That’s that’s basically what this is about. I was not a Facebook gal; I was I am not one of those that post pictures of my kids or what I ate or have these long stories about how I feel are all that that’s just not me. I’m a Twitter gal. And so, I would be on Twitter, and I would do you know, punches, little punches. Here’s what’s going on. Here’s what’s going on be short, blunt to the point. So, when this happened with messenger, it’s like, Yes, I can communicate in a very friendly Facebook kind of way. But Twitter like, that makes sense to me. I love it. And I just I just can’t stop.
Ilana: Yeah, cool. I’m always interested in people’s stories. And I’m sure you’ve got a fascinating story, do you I’m sort of touching a little bit without some going into a whole episode almost, you know, I guess how you landed here.
Mary: Oh, my goodness. So, the word landed here is really where that should start. Because I was in 2001, I was eight months pregnant with my second son. And I was visiting my neighbour. And I walked out her front door and proceeded to fall down three steps of her entrance of her landing. And I landed with two brokenlegs.
Ilana: Oh my god.
Mary: So, I’m eight months pregnant, both legs in casts up to the knee. Baby’s fine, right? I’ve got plenty of padding, okay. And, butI can’t walk, I’ve asked somebody and I have to go through labour, delivery, caring for my newborn, caring for my toddler, and you know, trying to fit a husband in there somewhere and house and all of that with casts up to the knee. And so, I experienced depression for the first time I’ve never, ever experienced and haven’t experienced it sense. But it really was a very hard charging, go getting just do everything myself, it’s very hard for me to ask for help. It was. Not anymore. And this was basically a knock across my head literally to say sit down, shut up, and just see what happens. And finally, when I got the casts off, and the baby was fine, and I was fine. And I got a couple of months out from that. And I looked back. And I really started to laugh because it was really funny. I mean, I didn’t even know whata bedside commode was. And I had one following me around. Because I mean, how often do you have to go to the bathroom when you’re in late term pregnancy? How are you going to get there? Oh, my God, when all you have is a walker. Oh my god. And so, it was really funny in that respect, because my poor husband had to to clean out that bedside commode twice a day for me. But I got on the other side of that. And I looked back and went, Okay, if I can do this, and I can keep my sense of humour intact. I can do anything.
Ilana: Yeah, amazing.
Mary: And I started my first business 18 months later.
Ilana:Yea right! And here you are!
Mary: And here I am.
Messenger Bots Explained
Ilana: So, let’s sort of touch on that. I guess before we kind of getinto the weeds on on messenger bots and kind of what you do. For those people who’ve never really, I guess gauged in the messenger bot. Can you kind of touch on briefly?
Mary: Yes. So, it is basically an automated communication tool forbusinesses to use to communicate with their audience and subscribers. It is a subscription based automated communication. In Facebook right now, there are other chat bots, it’s not just Facebook, you could actually there’s chat bots on on Slack and a bunch of different other places. But the biggest place right now for businesses to use it to communicate with their consumers are the customers is yes, Facebook Messenger. And it’s similar to the reason I talked about emails, because it’s similar to email where people have to subscribe, they have to find your OPT-IN somewhere, and then choose to say, Yes, I want to opt into this. And then you can send them messages to communicate warming them up, take them on an adventure, get them to know like and trust you better. And then obviously, hopefully convert them to a safe membership or whatever webinar attendance, whatever it is you’re talking about. So, in that sense, it’s very similar to email. So that probably makes sense to people to explain it that way. Butit is, that’s where the similarities end. The things you can do with messenger are beyond anything you could ever do an email.
Ilana: Really?
Mary: Yes. So, one of the things is, in email, you typically tell a long story, right? You’re, that’s we were on that path where most people pour their hearts out and have a story and could be 1000 or 2000 words, email. And then typically, they only have one, maybe two links, or two calls to action in that email, you don’t want to confuse people and give them too many options, right. Sothat’s great. And that works with email. But with messenger, this is very much text like. So, there are you can still tell a story. But you’re going to do it as if you’re texting a friend. So, you’re not going to text with a big long story story, and then ask them to click one button at the end. Right? This is a participation. The people in your in your chat bot actually participate in the adventure, they participate in the story by you giving them a littleshort snippet of some, you know, some hook or some engagement of some kind intrigue, you know, getting them involved in it. And then they click a button choosing to continue tohear more from you. And so, they have multiple, multiple buttons,multiple calls to action, that get people to have many “yeses” along in your story micro commitments. And then they finally get to the end whenever that is in the big commitment saying, hey, do you want to visit my webinar? Or do you want to visit my sales page? Or do you want to sign up for my video course or whatever? That’s the big pitch at the end, but all the way through your they’re engaging with your story there again, engaging with your adventure. You can’t do that in email.
Ilana: Right. I would imagine that, you know, we’re marketers were savvy, we know that this is a bot when we start engaging in messenger and all that kind of stuff. But for lots of end users, you know, suddenly you’re in their messenger inbox. You know, have you found that sort of freaks a few people out that? How did you how did this happen?
Mary: Yes. Most of the time, that experience, that response happens when people click on an ad. So lots of people, they lots of marketers are running ads, and they’re running them straight into messenger. And I’ve done that too. And then in the ad, you say, hey, when you click the button, messenger is going to open, I’m going to give you x, y, z, and you know, blah, blah, blah, well, they don’t read that. They just don’t, they’re used to clicking buttons in ADS. And they’re used to a landing page opening up or some other page. So, when they click the button, and all of a sudden you pop up in their messenger, if they haven’t seen it before, they’re usually not happy. Yes. And they look at you like, what are you doing in my messenger, you’re spamming me get out, you know, that kind of thing. So that’s the only time I typically see it is in that and in ads, and all we have to do is tell them I’m sorry, we can’t spam you. you clicked the button, and then you click to get started. And now you’re subscribed. If you’d like, we can unsubscribe, you’ll never hear from us again. But I can’t solicit you, okay, I can’t buy a list, I can’t go out and, and just spam you in messenger, you can’t do that.
The rest of the places, it’s they’re usually outside of ads, like if it’s on your website, or if you’re on a Facebook post, and they comment on it. And you’ve told them, you know, if you’ve connected the comment tool, where if they comment on a post that become a subscriber, that’s not as difficult for people. But as this becomes more mainstream people will be more familiar with it. People who’ve never seen it before really are like, Why? What are you doing? How did you get into my messenger? I don’t get that as much as I got into, say a year ago.
Best Messenger Bots Application
Ilana: Yeah, interesting. What would you say is sort of you think is like the best application of messenger bot for what kind of business I’m sure there’s lots of them? But wherever you said it really just coming to its own.
Mary: If you are, if you have a business that actually has a brand voice, a brand persona, you represent something in your brand, and you want your customers, clients, subscribers audience, to engage with the brand to get on board your message to get on board your cause. That is the business that messenger fits best, because that’s what it does, because of those micro commitmentsbecause of those many yeses. People are fanatical, they are just white hot for brands that they believe in. And that that hasn’t have a cause that they can back. That’s where a chat bot or messenger, that’s where it lives best. That’s where it’s in, in its best component is when you have a brand that has a cause.
Ilana: So, you think like some kind of charity or…?
Mary: Not necessarily. I mean, Nike, Nike has an amazing following, right? They have a great brand; they have very specific followers. You know, what was its North Face, right? I mean, they have a specific brand. And some of the celebrities, you know, KatyPerry, your brand, if you have any kind of if you even if you’re a business, and you have a charity you support or a particular, you know, following or group. I like one of my clients that I always use,because she’s given me permission to talk about her. She has a group called the “Because I Can Clan”. And she sells a course helping people start a and E-Commerce business. But really, that’s not what she sells. She sells the mindset basically says no, you can do this. And that because people can go and rally behind that cause and help lift each other up and give each other the confidence and the mindset shift to actually make a living online and feel good about it and do good things. That because she has built an amazing brand in a in a chat bot.
Starting Point for Application
Ilana: So, let’s let’s sort of delve a bit deeper into that. What What is sort of the starting point of an application for that.
Mary: So there, the chat bots, or at least in many chat and messenger. So, the the specific program that I used to build these, almost exclusively is called “Many Chat”, that’s “M-A-N-Y”. No, I’m not getting affiliate marketing or anything like that. But they in that in many chats, the bot is broken up into typically two sections. The first section is the growth tool, which is the tool that allows you to subscribe. And that’s where people come in. And that’s where they’re just like your email box on your website, right, your email capture box. They have, oh, I don’t even know how many but lots of different ways that you can bring people in from on your website, you can have an actual chat box pop up. And people you can say how can I help you and people can actually engage with that on your website, even though it’s in messenger. Links, you can put links anywhere, you can take a linkand put it in your email and say, Hey, do you want to chat over onmessenger click here, in Instagram on Pinterest, any of those linksanywhere. So that’s how people get in and subscribe. And then once they get into subscribe, you actually create what’s called a sequence of messages. And you can take them on an adventure, once a day, I typically would recommend not doing this more thanthree days in a row. Because people don’t want to be bothered in messenger. It’s not like email, where you can send them an email a day for 100 days. And I have a client who did that, who does that very simple, very successfully. He wanted me to take that those 100 emails and put them in the chat box. I said, nope, nope,not doing it.
So, you can you can send them messages once a day, once every two days, once a week, you can subscribe people to your RSS feed in messenger. So if you have a YouTube channel, you have a blog post, you have a podcast, you can actually put that RSS feed in your bot, and people will be notified through the bot when you’ve published a new episode, or a new video or whatever it might be. So, all of those kinds of communication tools you can use in messenger. And you can specifically take people on an adventure, you know, our relationships start a little cold, we don’t quite know each other very well. We kind of get to know each other have conversations, and then that conversation deepens. That’s what chatbots do very, very well. They start you off with here’s who I am, who are you, you can segment people, you can ask them specific questions and find out what they need. And when they tell you specifically what they need, you have attachedthem to a new sequence specifically talking about that thing. And only give them that until you ask them another question. And then they segment themselves again. Does that make sense?
Ilana: Totally. Yep. Its old school choose your own adventure.
Mary: It is absolutely. And people love that. Because this is how you can actually have more of a human one to one marketing communication in an automated way. Because it is so personalized.
Chat Bot Experience Differences Between Services and E-Commerce
Ilana: Right and I would imagine for, you know, a company which deals with, it provides services, for example, versus an E-Commerce store, it’s a completely different chat bot experience.
Mary: It can be, and it can’t, and maybe not. So, there’s one one of my E-Commerce clients, they have a cause behind them, right. They’re not just one off transactional, okay, when you purchase something from this store, they donate to elliptical or cause and they tell you about it, and they introduce you to the people whoselives they’ve helped change or help who, whose lives, you helped change by purchasing their products. So that E-Commerce store has a great following specifically, because these people want to support that charity. So, they keep coming back to that ecommerce store. And they learn about all those things. So, they’re still selling a product, but they have a cause. Now, that’s an E-Commerce. So now we definitely have services where you can like my services, for example, I sell through a bot, I don’t sell it, but I have applications and information where people can, you know, give me information to see if we’re a fit and see if we can help them. And you can be very specific on what exactly it is they
need and have an actual application or survey in the bot helping them find out really, whether they’re a fit for you or and if they are what types of services you offer that might fit them and then get get them out into the TV conversion to either a calendar page,or a sales page or an actual phone call right then with a sales team or whatever I mean, it really, I haven’t seen the only the only business that I’ve seen that would not be a good fit for a chatbot is a financial services. Actually, it’s a financial news site. And his he’s doing crazy amazing. incredibly well, multimillion-dollar products and services that he sells, but his audience self-described. He describes his audience as male ages 65 to dead.
I’m like, okay, you know, you’re probably right. I don’t think malesage 65 two dead or on Facebook. So yeah, I don’t think that wouldhelp him. (laughs)
Optimizing the Use of Chat Bots
Ilana: What about it connecting it with Instagram? And I mean, I don’t know, sort of less and less. What’s bit controversial statement, but you know, Facebook are kind of losing users a littlebit, and people are really on Instagram and stuff. Can you sort of incorporate it that way?
Mary: Totally. Well, first off, Facebook owns Instagram. So, there’sone thing Yeah, but secondly. So, I’ll say two more things. Numberone, you can put that link anywhere. So on, if you go to my Instagram, you’ll see I have a link tree account. So, I’ve got a cup,several links that you can that you can click in my bio. And one of them specifically talks about a particular lead magnet that I offer in messenger. So, you say that right there. So, they click that link,they go straight into messenger, and they get whatever I’m offering them. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is Facebook. By the end of this year, at least their goal is by the end of this year to open up Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp to chatbots.
Ilana: Yep.
Mary: So, it’s all they’re all you’re going to be able to communicate with all your customers or your audience on all three of those platforms. We’re not clear whether it’s going to be one dashboard, three different dashboards, those are the details. But Facebook is going all in, in messaging for businesses.
Ilana: Interesting. The interesting if I guess there’s a way that youcan incorporate your messenger subscriber list with your email marketing list.
Mary: You can definitely so we double. I call it double subscribing.So, we double subscribe people all the time. Here’s a typical example. You’ve been to a webinar and you know that webinars, you have to register for webinars with your email address. So, we start that webinar process on Facebook and messenger. And we give value first and nurture people and ask them hey, you might want to join our free masterclass on XYZ. Would you like to join us? And they say yes or no. So, if they say yes, then we actually have an integration that, that we’ve custom built to allow us to take their email address from Facebook, because Facebook shows us their email address that they use to create their Facebook account. And we already have their name, because Facebook alsogives us their name. And so, we automatically register them for the webinar without them. So, we take away that barrier.
Ilana: Yeah, right.
Mary: Yeah. So, then we automatically register them in whatever platform we’re using. And then at the same time, we take that email address and usually using Zapier but sup there are some native integrations like MailChimp, HubSpot, and I think Convert Kit so far, that automatically, we don’t need Zapier, they will automatically bring in your lists and your campaigns. And you canchoose which list in which campaign to subscribe that person to because they’ve already given you their email address. So now we’ve got them subscribed in both places, email and messenger, and we’ve got them on a webinar. So crazy, amazing things we could do with that.
How Do Facebook Allow Marketers to Get User’s Email Addresses
Ilana: Totally. How have How does Facebook allow you to get theiremail address in order to do that? So, sort of Many Chat?
Mary: Yes. Oh, it’s exactly if you’re many chats. Yeah. So, if you’reusing many chat, you can do it. If you’re using chat fuel, mobile monkey or pesto. Any of the, the messaging platforms where you can build these chat bots. On You first have a bot a text box that basically says, Hey, is that your best email address below and it automatically populates a button with their email address? And most people, the Facebook email address they signed up with is now 10 years old. Yes. So, it’s not the one they typically use. So, what we typically say is, is that your best email address below if so click it, if not type in a better one. And when they type it in or click the button, whichever one is automatically, then subscribe toall those other places. I mentioned the webinar and then your email list.
Ilana: Have you ever had sort of pushback from people, you know, suddenly, now you’re in their inbox? Like people sort of saying, How did I subscribe?
Mary: Nothing. I haven’t because first off, you know, less than 20% of the people typically on our emails, lists are actually even opening our emails. I’m just I’m just communicating with people almost exclusively in messenger.
Ilana: Yeah. Wow. Amazing. And I do know, you can export your messenger subscriber list and upload it to Facebook as a custom audience and all that kind of….
Mary: You can export it and upload it as a custom audience for ads and things like that. You can export it and put it into another bot platform.
Split Testing In Emails
Ilana: What about if you know, lots of people within their email marketing? will split test certain emails? Can you do that kind of stuff as well?
Mary: Oh, my goodness, yes. You can split test. Oh, my goodness,like three or four different sequences of messages. Each of those can obviously we know split testing, you probably only want to change one thing at a time, right? Because otherwise you don’t know what’s working. So, you can split test, different images, different copy, different buttons, any of those things, and you can choose which percentage of people get shown which message. You can do a 50-50, you can do it 70-30, you can try three different ones and do it 30-30-30, you know, it’s all it’s all of that as possible. Not only that, but every single button that they have the opportunity to click, you can tag so that everyone who clickedthat button, you know, is interested in whatever that thing was that that button talked about. And then you can send them targeted messages only to the people who click that button. Or only to the people who didn’t click that button. It’s a segment personalized, split testing. You can do custom rules. It just, it’s it’sincredible. And that’s just only beginning. I mean, this is still a very new technology, and it’s constantly growing and changing.
Best Practice In Using Chat Bots
Ilana: Yeah, amazing. So, I know you’re all about writing good copy for messenger. You know, obviously I’ve dabbled in messenger bots with for some of my own businesses and clients. So, what are some, I guess, best practice you think people should,should use when dabbling with messenger bots?
Mary: Yes, thank you so much for opening that can of worms. I’m so happy (Laughs). Because I see. Yeah, so number one, do not dump a mini email in a messenger bot. What I mean by that is, if you find yourself on your desktop, creating a chat bot, and you find yourself doing paragraph breaks, within that same text block,that’s your number one clue that that is going to be a low converting message.
Ilana: That’s your first warning signs.
Mary: First warning, don’t put paragraphs in there, okay, even if it’s only one sentence, and then you have a line break, you know, a blank line. And then you start the next sentence, even if you’re just doing that. So, remember this, this goes up on people’s phones. And so, when you deliver that message that’s got paragraphs in it, it just, it just goes off of their screen, they can’t read the whole thing. So, they have to scroll up to find the top andthen start reading. And we know what we do when we read emails, we scan, we don’t read, we scan. So now Do you really want to make them scan your messages? NO. You will get very low conversions. So, number one, typically, I keep it 160 characters or less in each text block, then if you don’t have a button or a call to action, right after that 160 characters, you definitely don’t have to, you would put a typing delay in there. And so that basically allows that are those three little dots that make it look like you’re typing. So that’s typing delayed, letting the subscriber know more is coming. Oh, so you 160 characters typing delay. And the typing delay should be when you’re looking at many chats, however many lines of text you have on there, that’s how many seconds of a delay you should have. So, if you’ve got 10 lines of text, that’s too many.
Right? So, I want to keep it five or less, if you can, okay, so 160 characters, typing delay, five or less lines. And then within three at around an average of three text blocks with typing delays between you should have some interaction, you have some kind of button you should have call to action, even if you just say, Do you agree? Yes or no? Right? Something leading so that you’re notjust tell tell tell. You need to ask questions; you need to get them engaged in what you’re saying. And so that’s standard hundred 60 care, typing delay no more than five lines if you can, and then no more than around three text blocks before you actually have an engagement.
Ilana: That’s awesome!
Mary: Yeah!
How to Start a Conversation with A Customer
Ilana: I guess continuing on that as a sort of tell people to avoid. So obviously Big paragraphs is number one, I guess, you know, like if somebody is first engaging with a brand, you know, like, do you choose to sort of tell your story a little bit? Or do you kind of give them what they want? How do you decide that?
Mary: Good question. So that is really going to depend on how they came into your bot. So just like an email, we typically give them something in exchange for subscribing, right. So, if I’m I don’t typically just have a general sequence of Hey, welcome, there is a welcome message. But not a lot of people come in that in my body anyway, or my client’s bots through that welcome message, they don’t just find us on our Facebook page and click send a message. And that’s typically where you can see that welcome message, they come in for a specific thing that we’re offering a lead magnet of some kind. And so, depending on what they came in for, we will obviously want to deliver what we promised. First off and just to give you an idea there, the you can actually deliver PDFs, videos, and audios in the chat bot, as long as they are 25 megabytes or less in size, you don’t really want to get near that 25 megabyte size, because it takes a long time for itto load. So, what you can deliver all those things, as long as they’re less than 25 megabytes in size. And then so we delivered what we promised.
And then we talk about what we promised andtalk about why they’re there and what what other value we can give or expand upon the thing that we just delivered. But it’s all value driven, whatever that is give value. And that is going to get them to know like and trust you faster and deeper than anything else. And then beyond that. The number one No, no, that I would say is trying to sell. I know it’s hard. I know we’re marketers, we want to make money for ourselves and our clients. But this is not a sale, we’re not in a sales page. Okay, we are not trying to sell, sell, sell, we are trying to nurture to help them decide if they wantto sell. And one of the best things I can tell you is to get very comfortable with rejection. So, what I mean by that is invite people to reject you before they get angry, right before they thinkyou’re bugging them. Invite them to say No, thank you. And that’stotally fine. I actually incorporate that into every single bot, not just Hey, you can unsubscribe by typing stop because they can allthey have to do is type the word stop, and the unsubscribe buttoncomes up, which is awesome. But I also tell them along the way, ifI’m asking questions, and I say, you know, hey, do you want to join me on my free masterclass? Or I’m going to show you x y, z? Isay Heck yes. Or Nah, No thanks. I actually give both of those options. And the people who say that, no thanks. I lead them to a message saying okay, no worries, I’ll be back soon with more information and helping you out with XYZ. If you ever want to unsubscribe type stop.
And you make it you can make it fun. I’ve had some things where it’s just so obvious. When I show people the difference in the amount of money they could make if they have their email subscribers in messenger. And it’s usually 10s of thousands of dollars different based on their own information based on their own conversion rates. And so, when I get down to the bottom of showing them all that I’m like, Okay, are you blown away? Or what? And I say Heck, yes. And then they say no, not really. And the people who click No, not really, I come back with – Are you kidding me? You’re the first person in the world ever click that button? You know, I mean, you have fun with it. Because I would rather and then I give them the option to say never mind, I was only kidding, show me the stuff, right? Because you want to give them that those options because in messenger more than anywhere else, the user the subscriber is in the driver’s seat. So, let them drive and choose what they want to do.
Ilana: That’s awesome! I can imagine pick your brain, for a very, very long time. But I’ve also mindful of your time and you’ve beenreally generous where can people find out more information aboutyou and your services and all that you all the wonderful work that you do.
Mary: Thanks, Ilana. You can just go to messengerfunnels.com and it’s messenger, not necessarily just in Facebook Messenger. Obviously, we do chat bots and other places. It’s really the messenger of your brand, the Messenger of your communication. That’s what we’re trying to talk about there. But it’s messengerfunnels.com you can connect with me on Twitter Messenger Funnel, you can connect with me on Facebook Messenger Funnels. You can go to chatbotmom.com that can take you right into the bot and show you what we do. Yeah, so just dive in. And anyone who has any other questions, they can reach out to me anytime and I’d love to, to explain more or help them understand how this thing works.
Ilana: Yeah, that’s awesome. Mary, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day. I’ve certainly have learned a lot and and how I’m going to apply it to my clients and maybe even my own business.
Mary: Better. Yeah. as marketers, we are the worst in marketing or own businesses. Right? (laughs)
Ilana: So, I really like the plumber with leaky pipes, right. Thank you so much. And it’s been lovely to chat to you. And yeah, sure. We’ll be in touch soon.
Mary: We’ll chat soon. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
