In the podcast:

01:59 – How Phil started
05:33 – Concept of Co-creating Course
07:55 – Creating a Course
10:20 – First course Phil started with
11:56 – Publishing outdated course or adding new lectures
15:07 – How Phil developed a online video school creation on his own platform
18:21 – Using YouTube for video production
21:05 – Does the video sent to the platform
26:18 – Phil in using paid traffic
29:38 – Testing Ads
32:49 – Phil’s advice to get into online course creation

In this episode, Phil Ebiner shared his experience how he built a full time income selling online courses on video production.

Ilana: Welcome to today’s episode of Teach Traffic. I have a guest today called Phil Ebiner who is in a little bit of a different industry. He teaches video production online and he has a bunch of courses online as well on his own website and he’s become very, very successful doing this. So welcome to today’s show, Phil.

Phil: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here and hope to help and inspire and teach everyone that’s listening.

Ilana: Yes so exactly like I want to get you on because I’ve been following your work for a little while now and I’m a fan of your podcasts as well. And I know that you know I guess you’re a student of the industry really yourself and using your own sort of courses as your own example. So I know you can provide a lot of value for us today. And you mentioned before we were offline that you started from absolutely nothing and I think for people now when they say a success story like you it can be somewhat daunted by the momentum that you’ve got now. So it wasn’t actually all that long ago that it was starting out. So can you give us I guess a little bit of background of your background and how you got started.

How Phil started

Phil: Yeah it’s pretty crazy it’s only been about five years since I started. But compared to maybe a lot of other businesses that people would try to start atleast by themselves I feel like things have ramped up pretty quickly and now it’s my full time gig. But back in 2012 I had been out of school for a few years and working full time at different colleges usually doing video production video work for them and I learned about this whole passive income thing through Halfling’s blog and different podcast. And I was always trying to figure out how I could do more stuff like that on my own just because as soon as I started working for other people I was always getting the itch to do other things and I also was in a lot of student loan debt and I felt like I wasn’t making any progress that often. I just know from my family’s background that struggling with money wasn’t something that I wanted to do. And for long term so I always trying to figure out ways to make a little bit of extra cash on the side. Starting a wedding videography business and doing freelance work on the side. And so yeah in 2012 I discovered this idea on teaching online classes and put together my first one teaching exactly what I knew and was passionate about the video editing and that I put on Udemy.com because that was the first place I heard that anyone could teach online. And luckily I made a few sales that first month and I made sixty dollars.

And from then I just got addicted to creating online classes and building my own brand. And like you said I really didn’t know what I was doing I didn’t do any of the things you’re supposed to do. The keyword research didn’t have an email list that I was building, no sales funnel, no nothing but I learned a lot all along the way. And now the business is a six figure business. I’m pretty open with sharing my income. And just because when I was starting out I was inspired by other people who share their income and made it feel like it was actually real and I don’t want to make people feel like this is possible for everyone’s going to do this. But I think for people who put in hard work it’s definitely possible probably projected to hit the 1 million mark on Udemy in the next year which is insane.

Ilana: Wow, that is crazy but I can see you on Udemy. You do have 76 courses. That’s insane.

Phil: I mean if you will look at that and you know that does seems crazy and the thing I want to remind people is that I quickly learned that I could work with other people to co-create courses that I wasn’t maybe the expert and I could kind of leverage other people’s expertise but also my growing brand on the platform to work with them and get more topics get more courses a little bit more efficient at creating courses.

But I’ve also done, I have 76 published courses I’d probably unpublished 20 or so courses on Udemy that I did for the wrong reasons I partnered with people and they just weren’t really great classes they weren’t in my brand or just old classes of mine my own path. Just the reviews weren’t that good and so they weren’t really helping or benefiting me at all. So like I said I got addicted to creating online courses and so I’m just been doing it sort of nonstop ever since it started back in 2012.

Concept of Co-creating Course

Ilana: So just go bit deeper into this whole concept of co-creating. So when you say you collaborate with another instructor, I mean there’s obviously an overlap of skills to some degree. How do you go about deciding who do you gonna do co-create a course with?

Phil: First people that I created courses with were friends of mine who I knew not like the online world or the online teaching world. And these were friends who went to college with me and studied film production with me. And so I already knew them I knew their personalities. I knew what their expertise was and so most of my courses are with people who I actually know or most like co-created courses are with friends of mine and in my real life. And so that I think is great advice because it’s a lot of people go online and try to find people online. But just that experience of being together working on a course together is fun. And you can really learn how to help other people teach online and that’s one of the things that I’ve learned is that not everyone is naturally good at teaching online. I wasn’t when I started. It’s taken me 50 courses or so before I finally feel like I got a knack for it. But while some of my friends are really good at a specific topic like more advanced photography skills more advanced than I would be they might not know how to explain it the right way to a beginner. Which is something that I’ve kind of learned how to use it all helped coach them while we’re teaching. So that’s one way that I’ve done it.

And then of course I’ve also found other people online who have their own audiences already and create courses with them and that’s a great benefit because when we launch a course then we have more of an audience to sell to and not that that should be the only reason why co-created course with someone but it’s definitely a benefit. But like I said I’ve done classes where I the end of the class I realize are like months later I’m like man that was like we really weren’t doing it to necessarily benefit people it was more just for let’s just get another course out and let’s see how much money we can make from this course that we work on together. So I would try to like advice listen to your heart and thing are you really doing this for the right reason or is it just to try to make it a little bit of actual money.

Creating a Course

Ilana: Yeah nice. So do you if you’re going to create do you decide on the curriculum together then you divide up sort of those segments that way rather than using a studio to get off.

Phil: Yes I it depends on the course. But a lot of times I’ll do a lot of the heavy work of writing out the outline of the course and structuring it because I feel like I know how to do that now and then we’ll split up on camera time. Some classes where the other person is definitely more of the expert and I’m just kind of the I would say publisher now I kind of see myself as a publisher of courses is all just the sort of behind the scenes more so I won’t even be in the class as much which I think is definitely a viable thing. One piece of advice has definitely come up with your agreement to what the how useful your work during that, why you create the course and then after the course come out with any agreement beforehand because I have created courses where the other instructor has fallen off the face of the online world and I’m left having to update the course, answers during questions and that’s fine if you’re being paid for it or you know the revenue share or whatever it is fair that’s just to keep in mind that I realized that there’s actually more work after you create the course than putting together the course itself.

Ilana: It’s going to be my next question actually. I’m glad that you go there.

Phil: We got to keep that in mind when you split the revenue.

Ilana: Nice. And I guess you also didn’t divide up because Udemy give you promotional e-mails and educational ones etc. So you both would clearly have access to that.

Phil: Yes so we split up. You know it’s not perfect on Udemy they don’t make it easy. I know if sometimes I just overlook oh if I send a promotional e-mail already that month sometimes I end up using both sometimes and then my co-instructor be like: hey Phil you use both probably email last month, what’s up with that? So I let use both the next month and then some of my co-instructors don’t really like promote on Udemy. They don’t have other courses so they help answer questions and stuff. But for those classes I kind of able to use promo announcements.

Ilana: Yeah cool. So which was the first course you started with?

First course Phil started with

Phil: The very first course by myself, it was a good piece of advice it was a video editing class but using a program called Final Cut Pro 7 which was sort of an old version of the Final Cut Pro which is a video editor but about six months or so after I created that course. They completely redid that whole program and my class kind of became outdated. And even though I think some people use Final Cut Pro 7 now because I still see few people rolling in that class it wasn’t sort of that evergreen topic that I wish that now I can try to create classes on. So when you’re creating first course try updates when that to make it something that will last a bit longer.

Ilana: Rather than based on the software which is inevitably going to get outdated.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah so yeah our plan on making those updates when that happens. And that’s cool thing and one neat thing about the fact that software changes after changes all these things allow new instructors to jump into teaching online and having and potentially to have a lot of success. I’ve seen best selling classes and bestselling instructors who don’t update their classes right away get overtaken by new instructors. You jump in right when the latest version of iOS or whatever software they’re using comes out. So if you are an expert in one of those topics definitely keep an eye out for when there is new updates come out. And it is a major update, plan on creating a course like right away and getting it live because it’s a great chance for you.

Publishing outdated course or adding new lectures

Ilana: So in that situation would you recommend on publishing the now outdated course or just adding new lectures and keeping that old material there.

Phil: That’s a great question. Well it depends on the software and how it works. I know for some software for example I teach a lot Adobe products like Photoshop and Premier pro for video editing and a lot of people still use the old versions because they don’t want to pay for the upgrades and especially a lot of people in an international audience get a hold of a copy of an old version of Photoshop. And so for a lot of those classes all leave the old versions out as a separate class and create a completely brand new course. But there are also some courses where it’s more of a general course. I have a big photography class one of my most popular classes called the photography master class. And for years we’ve just continue to update that class with new ideas new topics to make sure it’s up to date. But at this point I’m kind of a fan of doing a complete re-haul and a brand new version of of course partly because you do have that opportunity to sell it to the students in the current course and especially on Udemy when most people paid ten, fifteen dollars for a course. I don’t usually have a problem when I launch a new version of a course and selling it to the current students because hopefully by the end they’ve got in their ten dollars in value from the Old Course and are willing to upgrade to the new one.

I do have a few students who comment or complain about why they should upgrade or if they had to upgrade and sometimes I’ll just give them a free upgrade so that they’re not inclined to leave me a bad review. But that doesn’t happen too often.

Ilana: So by saying an upgrade you mean upgrade to a new course entirely.

Phil: Yeah course entirely. Right. And I think it depends if you have a class that is doing really well. A lot of good reviews as established in the market place for the keywords that you’re using for that course. You might want to just updated that course because it might take a lot more work to create branding course and drive traffic and build reviews and build that sort of SEO Juice for that class. But if you have a course that doesn’t have as good reviews it specifically time I mean if it’s below a 4.3 or so or even if it’s below 4.5 you might want to just completely start from scratch.

Ilana: Yeah cool. So onto kind of where you’ve now developed a business which is bringing online video school creation on your own platform. Can you kind of run us through, I mean obviously you would have utilized some of the momentum they had from Udemy how you’ve kind of grown your own platform because I think that’s obviously the Holy Grail for many business is to get off you. That’s my belief. Personally I have Udemy courses and I view it as a traffic source rather than building my business there. So I have full training courses on my Web site. Some of the materials are on Udemy. Not all of it. It’s a fine balance. So how have you done that.

How Phil developed a online video school creation on his own platform

Phil: Yeah it’s been a difficult process because you have to have traffic and know how to sell your courses to your trap and to be successful on your own platform. And as someone who didn’t know how to do that it’s taking me a while to figure it out. I remember when I was just starting I think it was like a few months into or maybe six months. I had like three courses up or something. I was already starting to figure out try to figure out OK how can I sell these courses on my own platform charter membership. And so gave me another online teacher kind of shut me down and was like you know your classes aren’t that great and not many people are going to pay for them especially you don’t have that much content maybe when you have like a larger library content it might be more valuable. And now the time I was like That’s not fair. Like I don’t know about that. But now looking back I see his point and I think that’s with the membership model anyways. If you want to sell your classes on your own site individually it might be a lot easier than a membership model unless you just have some sort of big following already and people who are already like waiting to pay for something of yours. I’ve tried everything from charging premium prices for my courses and that didn’t work. I have charge individually for courses at a lower price for my courses individually and it works better similar to what is happening on Udemy.

I mean just the price people are willing to pay was between that know fifteen and forty dollar price. I’ve always struggled with how do I promote my courses on Udemy and on my own site because people might get confused. And so what I’ve done is I kind of reconcile that by saying OK if you want to pay for the individual course I’m going to send you to Udemy because that is benefits to driving traffic to Udemy and your course like Udemy if your course ranks well on Udemy they’re going to promote your course you can make a lot of money on Udemy but if you want to take all of my classes that once I have my membership which is only 9 dollars a month. So it’s a pretty good deal I think for I think I have 50 or so courses in that deal now or a little 62 actually, I’m looking at it right now. So they can take whatever they want. They get all my courses they get all future courses as long as they’re a member. And that price seems to be working pretty well. It’s similar to what Skillshare started out doing. And now I have about 200 people in that. So that’s awesome because it’s monthly revenue that I can count on each month and that’s grown. I started that program at the start of the year.

So it’s been about a year since I started that and so that’s been growing. But yeah it’s kind of taken me a while to figure out what the price point works well for me. I’ve tried premium products as well. And definitely people can I know people do it. So it’s possible but it’s just a lot more work to figure out the sales funnel and drive people into that sales funnel on and actually make that sale. And I like making easier sales and so I start for a really inexpensive price.

Using YouTube for video production

Ilana: Yeah, cool. So before we hit record you were telling me that you are quite big. Well considered you invest a lot of time on YouTube. So can you tell us how you’ve used YouTube to kind of build that following.

Phil: Yeah YouTube is one of my biggest traffic sources. And again it’s not something where I proudly overnight success it’s just been kind of slow long grind of being consistent with it. And right after I started getting online classes in 2012 I realized that I did need some sort of brand and an identity where of Udemy to build. And so that’s when I started school online and that became my YouTube channel on my Website. And so since then I’ve been blogging almost weekly and then also posting videos almost weekly or more. I’m not strict like a schedule I don’t have like Mondays is you know a five minute video Tuesdays and another two minute video. I don’t have a strict schedule like that I think you did I’d probably be rolling my channel a lot faster. But basically what I do is just answer people’s questions from the classes. The most popular questions that I get in class, I answer those on YouTube. Those tend to be questions that people are searching for already on YouTube so that that’s good for SEO also put free lessons from my courses on YouTube and drive people back to the course all look for I just search for the topic on YouTube and see what other videos are ranking high for that topic and I’ll create my own version of that video. And yeah I guess I’ve just been doing it for 5 years now consistently and I have so 70,000 subscribers so its pretty good and I don’t know how many views I’m getting per month but it’s quite a few.

The thing that I did that I won’t recommend to people is that my YouTube channel has always been about all kinds of topics and so it’s about the video production, photography, personal finance, business, teaching online, and all kinds of stuff and they always say you should pick a niche and stick to it and you’ll be able to grow your brand faster. And I think if I did that I would. But that’s why I think I’m not getting as many views or subscribers as I could. But I can’t be perfect. I’m too lazy they create multiple youtube channels.

Ilana: Fair enough. He also diluting a lot of stuff. I mean can see the merit in creating one sort of theme for
a YouTube channel. But I guess there’s additional work in managing more assets really isnt’ it?

Phil: Yeah but I’m just doing all the standard stuff putting links on the top of the description back to articles for a while.

Does the video sent to the platform

Ilana: I was like that was going to be my question actually,in each of the video are you sending them to Udemy or are you sending them to your platform.

Phil: No I’ve changed depending on what I was feeling that month. But sometimes I’m sending them directly to the Udemy course especially when I launch a course. The goal is to just drive as much traffic to that course as possible get that initial reviews and try to use that ranking as fast as possible.

So all use the YouTube description and YouTube cards to send you back to the Udemy course for some longer term success. I just sent them directly to this specific lead magnets. Sometimes I promote my monthly membership so I’m doing a handful of different things but now I’m doing a lot of driving people to the Udemy courses. I kind started to do that and I went away from doing that and I’m back to driving people to Udemy I think were time before we started recording like. It’s amazing how this has gone and sometimes I feel like it’s just going to I’m going to wake up from this dream of Udemy. But at this point I’m like OK Udemy is what’s working and let me try to have as much success with Udemy as possible and that’s why compared to a lot of people I promote actually sending people to Udemy courses versus just trying to take people from Udemy. Or just driving people to your own site and your own courses.

Ilana: It’s interesting like you know I’m the same as you. I’ve got courses on Udemy, I have courses on my site. And truthfully I never send people to Udemy just because I feel that I’m at the mercy of them. And to be honest really I update my courses like my prime asset is my own website and I make sure all my best content is on my platform. Like yeah it’s just interesting that you go to a completely different approach and this obviously merits in both sort of it’s just interesting to say you know we’re polar opposites in that respect.

Phil: Yeah and I wish there was. I mean I could probably think you’re out and do it properly if I wanted to but I wish there was a better way to split test like this all because right now if you go to my website and you go to my course page they’re linked to Udemy. And so same with my water wells or on YouTube. I wish I could split testing and have it have some data says OK. You’ll end up making more money on Udemy if you drive traffic there or on your own site. The thing about Udemy is there’s just so much. There’s this intangible that we don’t understand or is hard to grasp. Like how much money do I make. Because I drive traffic. That isn’t the result of a direct sale. When I drive traffic to my Udemy courses and someone doesn’t buy that course Udemy.

Picks up the ball and they are advertising to that person on Facebook because like they pixel all of their pages and they Pixel on people visiting those landing pages. So even if I’m driving charge to my Udemy Courses and they don’t buy there’s a chance that person is going to end up buying the course at a later date.

Ilana: My feeling on that is that yes in that situation they have gone to my Udemy courses page and they didn’t buy but they might have visits lots of other paid course pages as well and then they’re showing ads for the other course pages too.

Phil: That’s true. And that person might end up buying the other course. I guess the other argument to that is that when they found out they told me and I know just from being a student nothing will satisfy lots of courses on the same topic and so if they’re looking at your course they might buy your or someone else in the same topic or they might be on someone else’s page and your course is recommended. So it’s hard to, you know. I think traditionally and I know most people would say said I’m trying to your own site but it’s hard for me to say that you shouldn’t send traffic to Udemy because of the success that had.

Ilana: Yeah look I mean you know I know people in my space they do that too. They send them to Udemy so I think lots of people do that strategy it’s just not one that I do personally and I’m obviously interested to hear your motivation and strategy behind it because it is a fluid thing and I just I guess I know for me like I put my best content on my asset where I can control like I thought it was about a year ago maybe even 18 months ago Udemy change their pricing. It was this huge uproar in the structor community and I don’t want to be at the mercy of that.

Phil: Yeah no that’s true and you never know. They can change the revenue share tomorrow and you know take more money. Then you know if you have courses on your own side you’re just driving traffic to your own side and you don’t really have to care about that much. But I think I think there’s a balance and I think you know I depend on me for a majority of my income and I promote a lot of my courses on Udemy. I think at the same time it’s so important to be building your own platform and to be building your e-mail list and the stuff that you have more control of just for the long run.

Phil in using paid traffic

Ilana: Yeah, totally. So you also mentioned before hit record that you haven’t really dabbled much into paid traffic so as a paid traffic person and a huge advocate. I find that also really interesting.

Phil: Yeah. I would love to get some insight from you about knowing you know where I am today. What I do because I haven’t stayed away from hate advertising because least for driving people to like a sales page because you know I hear that doesn’t work. And so I think that it will not marketplace to like you eat or something like that might be a better way to do it but I don’t know. I have to. The thing is I just don’t know what I’m doing. So when I log into the Facebook ads panel I’m like it’s just way too many options. So I don’t know. Can I get some advice from you like what is the best way for someone like me who is actually has a decent amount of traffic on my Web site to grow that traffic or to grow my email list or really what should be my goal anyways.

Ilana: Yeah awesome! Well if it were me and I was you and I had a lot of traffic to my Website at the very least installed by Google and Facebook retargeting pixels and I would just be doing retargeting first try lots different offers and see what offers work best for your retargeting people obviously excluding the people who have purchased as well. So once you get your remarketing or retargeting campaigns profitable and humming along nicely that’s the thing is they don’t actually cost a lot. Those campaigns then you can start just building your marketing list because now you’ve got that end of funnel campaign working then use to populate that funnel. So I would even to start with a really small amount maybe even just on Facebook because you could have a lot more ad copy is probably a much easier interface for you and you might be surprised actually how well it works.

Phil: And you think so, it’s better to try different offers like paid offers. Like promoting my membership or you mean like More like free lead magnets or something like that.

Ilana: I test both because you might be surprised that people think they’ve read probably a couple of articles of you’ll probably watch some videos or videos on YouTube then go on to check out your own Website which is usually the sequence of events you might find that they are ready to buy rather than forcing them to register for some kind of free lead magnet that they know they already want to buy. And I would test definitely test both. But it definitely obviously test some kind of like lead magnet but I wouldn’t be I guess the point is I wouldn’t be too scared to try and make it so.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. No that’s good and so I’ll just dig a little bit while I have you. So is there like a good amount of different, I don’t know ads that I should test. I don’t know like yours. You really should test test test test different audiences test different ad copy and that’s daunting to me. Like you’re like oh I need to do like 10 different ads or do two? Is there any sort of price that I should pay for each to see how it works.

Testing Ads

Ilana: Put it this way I reckon you’ll get a sense pretty quickly which ads are working and which ads are not working. Just stop with two and you’ll get a sense pretty quickly which one is getting more momentum than the others and what you’ll find especially if you stop with Facebook is purely because it’s social. People will share it. If you write your ad in such a way that is compelling. And as somebody might read it like: ah! this would be great for my friend who is also in the same industry as me and they’ll share it with their friend and tag their friend etc. So you’ll see engagement metrics like that on ads that are performing well and then you can just pause the losing ad and try a different split test. And you know I would say to also kind of try and write story based ads as well. I find they work really well rather than just going straight for the sale or the lead or whatever it is. Tell people your story a little bit you know because people buy from people and they love stories and that’s the perfect platform on Facebook because that’s what they feel it’s social. So they they would love that you know that whatever is just know your full story. But we’ve tested this heavily and like Time and time again this story based ads with a lot of ad copy like a lot of people think kind have a lot of ad copy and Facebook ads. Also I’ve tested this heavily long copy versus short copy.

And almost every time they’ll copy will win which I never would have thought I thought all people’s attention span these days is like a goldfish. But it’s always becomes like a mini landing page, the ad copy and then it converts really well.

Phil: OK. Well it’s inspiring to hear that and that is something maybe in 2018 will be one of my goals is to really figure out a bit more. This year I spent a lot of time just redoing my brand my Web site to get a little bit more focus and I feel like taking you to the next level. I feel like I could be a big part of that. I mean so when we use ads and there’s probably a lot of people that don’t know what they’re doing and are wasting money. But the big companies are doing it and people that seem to be doing well so it must be working for a good amount of people.

Ilana: Even and this is I guess the beauty with the paid traffic side of things is that you don’t have to do everything that you can do that don’t go to the supermarket and buy every single product to go there and you buy a handful of things and it’s the same thing. Like even if you just did retargeting leveraging your traffic that you are getting then it costs you like obviously I don’t know how much traffic you get but the most about retargeting campaigns are really low budget. Like most of the screenshots you see these amazing results from that remarketing campaign.

Phil: Well you have the Facebook Pixel installed so.

Ilana: Good. That was my next question.

Phil: Yeah I don’t have the Google installed though and so I shouldn’t do that. But yeah the Facebook one install and so I am tracking how many are the people getting pixeled.

Ilana: Yeah nice. So what advice would you give to somebody who is starting out and they’re looking to get into online course creation. What would that be.

Phil’s advice to get into online course creation

Phil: Well I think one big thing is that probably is going to take a while and a lot don’t work before you’re making the amount of money that you want to be making. I think most you will see them like oh I want to do this full time making enough money to quit my job or whatever that is. And the truth is it’s going to take a lot of work. And so because of that I’m a huge advocate of picking a nice And a course to start out with that you just truly are passionate about and you love but also something that you can foresee expanding on with multiple courses and creating an entire brand around a lot of people will start with courses that they don’t. They’re unable to create a course that is related that they can cross promote with. So pick a topic or topic that you can create lots of courses and if you’re going to be on Udemy that’s the way that I found to have the most success. There are some you have a lot of success with the one big master class for premium course that they sold for a few hundred dollars or a thousand dollars. But for me that’s not what I’ve had success with I had success with lots of courses on Udemy. So take a course topic that you are truly passionate about and and try not to worry about the quality that equipment side of things can get really daunting. And I studied film production so I had that kind of advantage on the war that I had to put it together.

And I think that’s the hardest thing is like for people starting out like creating a video, a high quality video that is tough. And so it’s there’s a few pieces of equipment that you can invest in that makes it a lot easier.

Like a USB microphone you can start out with anything from the Blue Snowball or the Blue Yeti and then also some sort of screencast screen recording software. When you’re starting out you don’t have any money to invest. That’s one thing but a lot of you will try to pick you know find free apps to put all these things together but just spend a hundred dollars in your dollars to invest in something like screen flow. If you’re using a Mac or Camtasia if you’re using a PC and that’s going to make the process of recording and editing just so much easier than trying to use 10 different apps to do that all that kind of stuff and just start with something simple screen power point based on a slideshow based course and just get it up and you get to learn a lot just from that process and join the Facebook groups with all the other online teachers learn from them watch their online courses see what they’re doing and what makes their courses so good. Join other people’s e-mail list to see what they’re doing with their e-mail list. Just and watch all the other people in your space and especially in your niche to see what your competitors are doing.

Ilana: Great advice. Well I’m mindful of people’s time and you’ve been very generous with your time and your age. So Phil where can people find out a little bit more information about it.

Phil: Yeah it is wall to place it three places you could go to philebiner.com that’s kind of my home base where you can find out a little bit more about me if you’re interested specifically in teaching online. I’ve got my podcast online course master show and you can check out our onlinecoursemasters.com. And then I was mentioning if you just want to see how I do things if you want to see how I write blog or was put out YouTube videos. That’s all at videoschoolonline.com and under videos online brand so on YouTube and Instagram it’s all videos online.

Ilana: Well thank you so much for giving up some of your time. And yeah it’s been lovely chatting with you.

Phil: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Ilana: Always gonna talk to you later, bye.